Tip of the Spear BOB Hunt (MAJOR UPDATE)(Solved)

[ColdGlider]

I'm going to get Pulse-like on this one and talk about science.  Well, computer science anyhow.

Most every programming and even scripting language has the equivalent of the C and C++ SWITCH statement.  Many of you here have used it in your own programming work.  Essentially, it allows you to test the value of a certain variable and selectively execute code based on that value.

Consider the following:

Code: [Select]

switch (rnd) {
  case 1:
    SpawnBob(Location_1);
    break;
  case 2:
    SpawnBob(Location_2);
    break;
  case 3:
    SpawnBob(Location_3);
    break;
}
In the code above, assume "rnd' is a variable containing a random number, expected to be in the range 1-3.  The code would then randomly call the SpawnBOB function with one of three possible location values ("Location_1", "Location_2", or "Location_3").

Still with me?  So assume the code above executes when the Spire area loads as part of the script that populates the enemies of the area and generally sets things in motion.

So long as the "rnd" variable evaluates to 1, 2, or 3 then all is well.

UNTIL...

You realize that the value of "rnd" sometimes becomes 0, because you're generating it randomly and you forgot that the default range of your random number function begins with 0.  So "rnd" actually can be any number between 0 and 3.  When the control variable of the SWITCH statement doesn't match a testing condition, NOTHING HAPPENS. In other words, if 0 is chosen as the random number (or 4, or 5, or any other number for which there isn't a "case" condition) then no spawn function gets called and no error is generated.  It's an easy mistake to make, and since it wouldn't generate a compile or run-time error it could easily slip through.  It could also easily be missed in testing, since a missing BOB might be assumed to have simply slipped away and despawned, as they often do.  I suppose that comes down to how thoroughly the testers were looking at the BOB spawning behavior in that particular area.

I have been referring to the selection of a non-spawning BOB as the "1.4" condition, since that would be the next logical numbering of a fourth BOB spawning point for BOB 5-B-1.

I'm not totally giving up that we have somehow missed the BOB, but we are really running out of options here.  I think we're approaching the point where one of the following must be true:

• There is a hidden switch (or switches) we haven't found which would do something cool (like Reach Racer), and would also spawn variant 1.4 if it had been randomly chosen.
• This is the first occurrence of a BOB spawn which only spawns on Legendary, either by Bungie design or scripting accident.
• The 1.4 variant spawns before the Falcon flight (at the very beginning of Rally Point Bravo.)  It would be strange for a variant spawn point to be in a completely different loading zone from the rest, but hey- it's possible.

I suppose to be thorough, I should probably include that we just haven't found it in the Spire area yet, but be my guest:
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=24788284&player=ColdGlider

The saved film above chooses the non-spawning (or non-found) BOB at 6:44 when I enter the Spire area after the Falcon flight.  Have a look around, and please prove me wrong! 

[Lord Friendship]

This is what I was afraid of.  It's hard to get any official word out of Bungie, of course, but you can always try!  I tweeted at them, we'll see if they respond.  If that doesn't work, maybe I'll ask really, really nicely on HBO; sometimes Urk or someone will drop by with a helpful word.

In the interest of thoroughness, I'll try my hand at a no-death (or at least few-death) run of ToTS on Legendary, killing everything in sight, and in a game where no BOB appears, when I can.  I know I could do it with skips -- I almost beat it on Mythic a few times -- but I'll play the honest way.

Thanks for all the good work guys!  I'm actually one BOB away from this part of the guide, so it'll be good if this is all sorted out soon.

[Pulse Cloud]

Interesting, CG.
I've been trying to post a comment but I just can't: when I try to say something against your post I always find a way how my arguments fail, and when I try to say something that supports your post the same happens.
We've reached the "I can say whatever I want and it just might be right - if they did it the way I think they did" stage. There's not much to say: you might be right, you might be wrong - we have no guarantees of anything.

We don't even know if they used random numbers...



Seems a bit hacky and over-the-top, but maybe we can find something by replicating the same exact tasks. For instance:
    1) Be offline;
    2) Turn on Xbox, select the Campaign mission Tip of the Spear and let it load;
    3) Turn off the Xbox with the game disc inside;
    4) Turn on the Xbox;
    5) Start the game with the minimum number of moves necessary (I think you only need to press A to start the game if you're offline);
    6) Let the opening cinematics play and wait until you're prompted to press START;
    7) Press START;
    8) Press A to start the choosing of a new Campaign mission;
    9) Let the mission load (I'm assuming the Xbox remembers it's TotS);
   10) Press A to start the Campaign mission;
   11) Finish the level without killing anything (excluding the obligatory enemies, if any);
   12) Repeat, twice, from 2) to 11) and then skip to 13);
   13) Watch the recordings of the gameplay and check if the spawning of the BOBs occurred in the same location.

If the BOBs spawned in the same location I shall eat dirt for 3 consecutive days.

[Scatcycle]

We should try it, but I doubt they would spawn in the same place. The Xbox 360 most likely uses a timer to imitate random. The timer is always changing. When called upon for a random variable, it will go a large number of integers into the timer. Like 17.47869327595001858205828348597039406604. This decimal will be so far into the number that  it's impossible for a human to manipulate the number in any way.

But if you could consecutively jam the A button perfectly so that there's no dead time in between presses, and the map loads the exact same amount of time as it did before (which I highly doubt it would), you could, in theory, have a BOB spawn in the same place every time.

[Scatcycle]

There's a random Phantom that spawns in the Spire's lifts, then, without dropping anything off, goes through the EMP barrier and exits the map.

I have no idea why they would put this here.

[Lord Friendship]

That's supposed to exemplify that the Spire is a teleporter.  There's some dialogue about it as well.  Still, it would be interesting if it were possible to take it down.  Unfortunately, you don't have much firepower when it spawns, and it moves quickly.

I'm working on the TotS portion of my video guide now; I'm going to try and get a no-death, kill-everything run of this level on Legendary during the next Golden Opportunity challenge.  Until then, I'll just be collecting the known BOBs.  I haven't noticed anything new yet, except for the fact that you can take out the Phantom that drops the first Wraith you encounter (by the portable bridge).  I thought it might be a BOB, but one spawned later in the level.

[Lord Friendship]

So, something strange happened, and I thought I'd see if any of you could see some significance in this; it might be interesting, it might not.

As you may know, there is a Falcon at the second Tyrant anti-air gun.  If you destroy the gun PDQ, the Falcon will survive (normally, it's destroyed by the Tyrant).

Not only did I save the Falcon, I managed to EMP it, flip it, and eject the pilot.  Unfortunately, Falcon piloting seems to be disabled for this level, and as such, no "Press X to pilot Falcon" prompt showed when I got near the Falcon.  I couldn't even flip it back over.

Pics:













Later, when I was in the other Falcon with Jorge, I fired a grenade round at the downed Falcon, and got a -150 point betrayal penalty.  I figured it was for the invisible pilot, but I'm not sure.  If anyone can think of a use for this, let me know.  Hadn't seen it before, thought it might be interesting.

[Scatcycle]

Same exact thing happened to me on one of my runs. Foolishly, I did not wait till Jorge's Falcon came down when I tried to pilot the falcon. Did you? It could be that when Jorge's Falcon lands, the variable that shuts out boarding air vehicles could be changed, letting you get into Jorge's Falcon.

With this variable changed, you may be able to pilot the falcon.

[Lord Friendship]

By the time I had dropped the Falcon, Jorge's vehicle was already there and waiting.  You can only ride Jorge's Falcon, making me think that there are global variables that can be set regarding vehicles.  So, Exodus has Pilot.Banshee = 0; at Tip of the Spear has Pilot.Falcon = 0.  It's a shame, flying a Falcon through the canyon would be a lot of fun.

[Lord Friendship]

So, pretty exciting news!  I posted on the HBO forum about this particular problem, and Urk saw it and mentioned it to Niles Sankey, the lead mission designer for Reach.  Mr. Sankey said he'd look into the code, and see what's up!!

It might be a while, but it's be nice to know that someone's looking into this, instead of us just banging our head against the wall in frustration.  I'll update here when I hear back!

[Insane Monx]

So, pretty exciting news!  I posted on the HBO forum about this particular problem, and Urk saw it and mentioned it to Niles Sankey, the lead mission designer for Reach.  Mr. Sankey said he'd look into the code, and see what's up!!

It might be a while, but it's be nice to know that someone's looking into this, instead of us just banging our head against the wall in frustration.  I'll update here when I hear back!

[ColdGlider]

I posted on the HBO forum about this particular problem, and Urk saw it and mentioned it to Niles Sankey, the lead mission designer for Reach.  Mr. Sankey said he'd look into the code, and see what's up!!

Thanks for reporting the news, LF- and well done!

[Lord Friendship]

Please read the OP!  Niles Sankey replied, and it looks like we've got our work cut out for us!

[Scatcycle]

I don't understand why he didn't test the BOB spawn. For all we know, we may be on a wild goose chase. He confirmed that this other BOB exists, but he didn't confirm that it spawns. He said it should spawn, unless the code is bugged. 

[Lord Friendship]

Well, he does have stuff going on, I heard Bungie is working on a new game or something.

Even if it's glitched, I'm hoping that we can work around it, e.g. the LNoS Beach BOB.  Either that, or it's REALLY well hidden.  I'm thinking up high?  There are a lot of unreachable grassy ledges.  We'll see, I think a few people at HBO might look into this as well.